Seymour Skinner continuity - Printable Version
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Seymour Skinner continuity - Will k - 10-08-2011 06:07 PM
So it's confused us all for a while, about Seymour Skinner, but mostly, who's in the flashbacks and such. We've had a discussion on IRC, and will post the transcript soon. When we do, please leave your input.
RE: Seymour Skinner continuity - Cook879 - 10-08-2011 06:18 PM
[22:42] <cjc> Whats the Skinner meeting?
[22:42] <Will-k> To discuss the Seymour Skinner continuity
[22:43] <Will-k> For example, there's an image of baby Skinner on Armin's page, where it COULD be real Skinner
[22:43] <Doh5678> Do it next week
[22:43] <Will-k> Mmm
[22:43] <Will-k> :|
[22:43] <Cook879> Once i park my truck i'll post a crazy theory
[22:44] <Will-k> Solar_Dragon: Hope you feel better
[22:44] <Will-k> Cook879: O......K?
[22:44] <@Solar_Dragon> I'm really angry at myself right now...
[22:44] <@Solar_Dragon> And punching a wall didn't help :|
[22:44] <@Solar_Dragon> In fact, it made matters worse...
[22:44] <UnknownFork> back
[22:44] <@Solar_Dragon> My hand now hurts
[22:44] <Cook879> Damn crashed at the parking space
[22:45] <@Solar_Dragon> Feel free to laugh at my stupidity at punching a wall if you want
[22:47] <Cook879> anyway based on every other media it would be crazy to label everything in Skinner's childhood as Real Skinner's, as it is quite clearly Armin Skinner doing all the things, so I think we could have a crazy theory to say that all the residents truly forget real skinner and have Armin Skinner as their representation of him.
[22:47] <Will-k> Solar_Dragon: Hey, my friend once punched a pantry door, you should've seen what his hand looked liked afterwards
[22:47] <UnknownFork> lool
[22:48] <Will-k> Here's my comments: Armin went to pretend to be him, because he looked like him, yes?
[22:48] <Will-k> Point.
[22:49] <Cook879> Yeah - you can't tell with the baby photo as they both have similar facial features
[22:50] <cjc> I think this is over-analysing it. Why not just accept the judge's thing that Armin=Skinner
[22:51] <Cook879> we already accept that - but what about the past?
[22:51] <cjc> Armin = Skinner
[22:51] <cjc> Just declare the ep semi-canon or something
[22:51] <@Solar_Dragon> I still say that The Principal and the Pauper and I D'oh bot's subplot are non-canon
[22:51] <Will-k> *Point and case.
[22:51] <cjc> canon, regarding it doesn't conflict
[22:52] <cjc> (what are the subplots)
[22:52] <Cook879> But i'm pretty sure in some cases we have Armin as the feature of a comic, which would mess up histories completly
[22:52] <Will-k> cjc: But what about the other episode where Lisa calls him "Principal Tamzarian"
[22:52] <@Solar_Dragon> I means the whole episode for "Principal and Pauper" and the whole Snowball dying subplot of "Doh bot"
[22:53] <@Solar_Dragon> "I, D'oh-bot" that is Will-k
[22:53] <cjc> just ignore
[22:53] <Will-k> The Snowball plot is perfectly plausible
[22:53] <Cook879> Snowball i have no problem with
[22:53] <Will-k> Ah right
[22:53] <Cook879> We can't just ignore
[22:53] <Will-k> Exactly
[22:53] <cjc> or just, accept the Simpsons has no focus on canon
[22:53] <@Solar_Dragon> but, it was in the subplot that she called him "Armin"
[22:53] <Will-k> But let's get back to the Skinner continuity
[22:53] <Cook879> When The Simpsons ends we'll just have to have debates about canonity of things like this
[22:54] <Will-k> Our job here at the Simpsons Wiki is to fit information so as to inform people of the characters' lives
[22:54] <Will-k> Etc;
[22:55] <@Solar_Dragon> Okay, here's where we should go! The "real" Seymour Skinner was the imposter and he brainwashed the other Skinner to believe that he was him!!!
[22:55] <Will-k> It has not been deemed non-canon
[22:55] <Will-k> By staff
[22:55] <Will-k> And thus, is canon
[22:55] <Will-k> WTF
[22:55] <cjc> I think, it is easier for us, for readers, for the internet, for our sanity, for it to be ignored
[22:55] <cjc> Staff don't deem stuff as canon?
[22:55] <Cook879> Another crazy theory was that "real" Skinner was a fraudster, but it would have to take deep episodic anaylsis to prove and its unlikely we could
[22:55] <cjc> Its not like Star Wars, where someone is in charge of canon.
[22:56] <cjc> The original goal of, say, comics based on childhood, is to show that Skinner was there. It is the skinner we know, as it is the same basic character.
[22:56] <Will-k> cjc: Ignored? When you actually read in to the pages and watch the episodes, it gets tricky
[22:56] <Will-k> Like, Armin in Agnes' belly?
[22:56] <Will-k> Is it really Armin?
[22:57] <cjc> Therefore, it makes sense for everyone concerned to count any childhood things as our Skinner (or Armin or whoever he is)
[22:57] <cjc> When I said Skinner, I meant Skinner as in Armin, not other guy
[22:57] <Will-k> If we forget it all, leaving 'Armin Tamzarian' is dangerously confusing
[22:57] <Cook879> See i know there was a "Armin type Skinner" in one comic, just not sure if he's called Armin or Seymour
[22:58] <cjc> When designing the flashbacks, they have meant for it to be "Armin"
[22:58] <cjc> (Armin is the one who has been in it from season 1 right)?
[22:58] <Will-k> cjc: Yes, but we need to find a way around that
[22:58] <Cook879> If called Skinner and its deemed canon we could rap it up as past still is Armin
[22:58] <Will-k> If we say RS really is canon, the flashbacks of baby Skinner are him, not Armin
[22:59] <Will-k> Point and case.
[22:59] <Will-k> Doh5678: No input?
[22:59] <Cook879> We need to gather information really, go through all central plots and decide from the evidence. A forum post would be helpful in that regard
[22:59] <@Solar_Dragon> Okay then, I still think TPATP and D'oh bot are non-canon
[23:00] <cjc> Tbph, I think this whole thing is pointless.....
[23:00] <@Solar_Dragon> And I will stand by that
[23:00] <Will-k> Eh, but Cook879, what if just this, happens on the forums. We'll just be waiting 12 hours for a useless reply
[23:00] <cjc> The idea that TPATP (that is the episode where fake and real skinner right?) is that its just a quirky storyline
[23:00] <cjc> in a time when story ideas were rather low
[23:01] <Will-k> Really, if we deem TPATP and IDB non-canon, I'll be pissed.
[23:01] <Will-k> cjc: We still need to figure how to for it in
[23:01] <Doh5678> I agree with all of you
[23:01] <Will-k> You guys just think IDB is non-canon because she says "Principal Tamzarian"
[23:01] <Will-k> Doh5678: @_@
[23:02] <cjc> and the idea that we should now spend ages figuring out whether Agnes was pregnant with Armin or Seymour, or whether character in classroom in minor childhood flashback is Armin or Seymour just implies we have a lot of time to waste....
[23:02] <Cook879> Well i'll look at episodes and stuff at some point, but i think we should at least log this convo on the forums for others to input
[23:02] <@Solar_Dragon> Will-k, yes, that's why it's non-canon because a non-canon subject is mentioned
[23:02] <Will-k> cjc: Not a great conclusion
[23:02] <Cook879> I think it's a very loose reason to declare the episode noncanon
[23:02] <Will-k> Yes, but making the whole ep NC just for that?
[23:02] <Will-k> That's bs
[23:03] <@Solar_Dragon> Yes, that's where I stand.
[23:03] <Will-k> Anyone care to copy the conversation over to the forums?
[23:03] <Will-k> I'll make a forum post
[23:03] <Cook879> I'll do it when we end
[23:04] <cjc> The writers view on the episode:
[23:04] <cjc> "This [episode] is about a community of people who like things just the way they are. Skinner's not really close to these people—you know, he's a minor character—but they get upset when someone comes in and says, 'This is not really the way things are,' and they run the messenger out of town on the rail. When the episode aired, lo and behold, a community of people who like things just the...
[23:04] <cjc> ...way they are got mad. It never seems to have occurred to anyone that this episode is about the people who hate it."
[23:04] <Cook879> I have to agree with Will-k on the canon front, I only like to see things made non-canon when they really are completly non-canon, something like this is a very small basis to do it
[23:04] <@Solar_Dragon> At the end of this discussion, there should be 2 more non-canon episodes by our standards
[23:04] <cjc> In a later interview, Shearer added, "Now, [the writers] refuse to talk about it. They realize it was a horrible mistake. They never mention it. It's like they're punishing [the audience] for paying attention." In the introduction to the ninth season DVD boxset, series creator Matt Groening describes "The Principal and the Pauper" as "one of [his] least favorite episodes." He also...
[23:04] <cjc> ...called the episode "a mistake" in an interview with Rolling Stone.
[23:05] <Cook879> That's all well and good but doesn't relate to our discussion
[23:05] <Cook879> We don't care how they feel, we care about how it impacts the canonitiy
[23:05] <Will-k> Yes
[23:05] <Will-k> Mhmm
[23:07] <cjc> It doesn't have to impact the canoniticity at all, mainly because the show lacks any real canon
[23:07] <@Solar_Dragon> If the writers themselves hate the episode and refuse to mention it, isn't that enough to make it non-canon?
[23:07] <Cook879> But we need a canoniticity as we need it to organize ourselves
[23:07] <Will-k> Yes, but our job is to sort that area out
[23:07] <Will-k> Solar_Dragon: No
[23:08] <Cook879> No, that's like saying as Groening hates A Star Is Burns that's non-canon
[23:08] <cjc> Canon is a narrative, a story throughout
[23:08] <Will-k> Cook879: Touché
[23:08] <Will-k> Mhmm
[23:08] <@Solar_Dragon> If it wasn't mentioned in D'oh-Bot, would it have instantly been made non-canon by us?
[23:08] <Will-k> The ep has a story
[23:08] <cjc> Star Wars has someone to check canon, so things don't go wrong for instance. However, the Simpsons is mainly just individual things
[23:08] <Will-k> That was kind of pointless, cjc
[23:08] <cjc> However, the Simpsons, each episode has a story, but they don't connect
[23:08] <Will-k> Solar_Dragon: True, but it was
[23:09] <Doh5678> The Computer Wore Menace Shoes, is that canon?
[23:09] <cjc> You very rarely need to watch an episode to get why something is happening
[23:09] <Will-k> So it's our job to choose which is canon and non
[23:09] <Cook879> Although I can throw in another prediciment
[23:09] <@Solar_Dragon> I thought about making that non-canon Doh5678
[23:09] <cjc> What happens in Season 1 is never mentioned in Season 20 or anything like that. It has very little effect.
[23:09] <Will-k> Exactly
[23:09] <Cook879> In one episode, Homer recalls previous events, including a THOH one. How does that work for us?
[23:10] <Will-k> And that makes that canon
[23:10] <cjc> The only thing that stays the same is the characters
[23:10] <Will-k> Cook879: Really?
[23:10] <Will-k> Strange
[23:10] <Will-k> Let's work that out another time
[23:10] <Cook879> pretty sure, i'd have to check
[23:10] <cjc> buildings move, rooms change, people change jobs every episode
[23:10] <@Solar_Dragon> I know that the Golem was seen in "The Color Yellow" but it was not alive, just a statue
[23:10] <Will-k> cjc: With all due respect, it's not much input
[23:11] <cjc> One day the Power Plant is right behind the simpsons house, the next it requires a drive down the highway
[23:11] <Will-k> Solar_Dragon: But it was some Jewish golem, easily existent as a statue
[23:11] <Cook879> The whole town moved once, the same can be down
[23:11] <Cook879> *done
[23:11] <cjc> Well, with all due respect, I really couldn't care whether Agnes gave birth to Armin or Seymour
[23:11] <Doh5678> Should I create a Canonicity disputed template?
[23:11] <@Solar_Dragon> And then one episode, there's a prison, then the school, in the same place seen from the back garden
[23:11] <Will-k> BUT OUR JOB IS TO MAKE HEAD AND TAIL AROUND THAT
[23:11] <Will-k> Urgh, meeting dismissed
[23:12] <Will-k> Someone paste it over
[23:12] <Will-k> Will-k: Oh, if Sea actually does choose a Staff Member, count me out
[23:12] <Will-k> Whoops
[23:12] <Will-k> I damn hate this shitty copying
[23:12] <Doh5678> Should I create a Canonicity disputed template?
[23:12] <Will-k> http://simpsonswiki.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=41
[23:12] <cjc> We have no job
[23:12] <cjc> hence why we have time to sit here and discuss this
[23:13] <Will-k> cjc: Really, you're not helping.
[23:13] <Will-k> Doh5678: Hmm, we could
[23:13] <Will-k> That'd be easiest
[23:13] <Will-k> But I don't really like it
[23:13] <Will-k> In the Skinner area, that is
[23:13] <@Solar_Dragon> But, cjc has a point, nothing is exactly canon in The Simpsons. Things move about all the time. Moe's has been down the road from the Simpsons house, the school, power plant, and a prison have been behind the house
[23:14] <cjc> It just seems like a whole load of fuss over not-much. The idea that perhaps we should count all Skinner appearances prior the Vietnam War as "real" skinner, would just get confusing for anyone trying to use the site
[23:14] <Will-k> Solar_Dragon: Then we may as well totally ditch Wikisimpsons
[23:14] <@Solar_Dragon> No, or, just claim that nothing is canon
[23:14] <@Solar_Dragon> There is no "canon"
[23:15] <@Solar_Dragon> Like Family Guy for instance where random stupid things happen all the time then suddenly, everything is back to normal
[23:15] <Will-k> Then how do we structure it in to an article?
[23:15] <Will-k> @_@
[23:15] <Will-k> Meeting over
[23:15] <Will-k> Someone paste it
[23:15] <Cook879> But that would require a massive structural change for the wiki
[23:15] <Will-k> I'm not talking any more
[23:15] <cjc> Something can have a wiki without canon. Canon is not necessary, unless you have a story to tell
[23:15] <Cook879> We have the story of The Simpsons
[23:15] <cjc> go on, explain the main, overriding plot of The Simpsons
[23:15] <Will-k> FFS, MY POINT IS HOW DO WE PUT IT IN TO ARTICLES
[23:16] <@Solar_Dragon> Well, for THOH episodes, they would get separate sections on the pages. Everything else would get thrown into the main article
[23:16] <Cook879> The family have wacky adventures - we have to chart their adventures for the readers
[23:16] <Will-k> cjc: No need to be a smartass
[23:16] <cjc> You win arguments by being a smartass
[23:16] <@Solar_Dragon> Only exceptions would be "Behind the Laughter" and "The 13Nth episode spectacular"
[23:16] <Will-k> Cook879: Point taken, "massive structural change for the wiki"
[23:17] <Doh5678> Wait, if only little things change but the plot doesn't change anything major, e.g the THOH, that should be canon
[23:17] <Will-k> *facepalm*
[23:17] <cjc> We don't exactly list stuff like a canon wiki would anyway.....
[23:17] <Will-k> Invite me back when you've pasted the conversation
[23:17] * Will-k (~Will-k@clubpenguinwiki/user/Will-k) has left #wikisimpsons
[23:17] <cjc> We don't list all the wacky things Homer has done in chronological order
[23:18] <cjc> You lot are just making a big deal over shit all
[23:18] <Doh5678> That's Simpsonpedia stuff
[23:18] <Cook879> We should, i was going to with Grampa but the idea was dismissed
[23:18] <cjc> You can't list it in order, as there is no order.
[23:18] <cjc> Where do things fit into order. Release date?
[23:19] <cjc> To many things contradict
[23:19] <Cook879> Airdate order, flashbacks before hand
[23:19] <cjc> The series has no one in charge of canon.
[23:20] <cjc> No one decides officially what is canon, and I don't see why we should therefore concern ourselves with it
[23:20] <Doh5678> How do we order the flashbacks then?
[23:20] <Cook879> But we've started, and as fans consider canon we can't quit
[23:20] * Will-k (~Will-k@clubpenguinwiki/user/Will-k) has joined #wikisimpsons
[23:20] <Will-k> Finished?
[23:20] <Cook879> well put them before, if they slot there
[23:20] <Cook879> still going
[23:20] * Will-k (~Will-k@clubpenguinwiki/user/Will-k) has left #wikisimpsons
[23:21] <cjc> Meh,, if you lot want to waste your time cross-referencing Skinner appearances with his characteristics as per TPATP, or whatever, be my guest.
[23:21] <Doh5678> OK, I'm creating the canon disputed themplate
[23:21] <cjc> It just seems like we are over-analysing everything for a show which, has no sense of canon.
[23:21] <cjc> At the end of an episode, the world resets
[23:21] * Will-k (~Will-k@clubpenguinwiki/user/Will-k) has joined #wikisimpsons
[23:22] * Will-k is not participating ATM
[23:22] <Doh5678> Still going
[23:22] <@Solar_Dragon> I agree with cjc, there is no real canon
[23:22] <cjc> a few things may carry, new characters, new buildings, but its like a brand new town the next episode,
[23:22] <@Solar_Dragon> The power plant, school and a prison have been behind the Simpsons house, two of those in the same episode!
[23:22] <@Solar_Dragon> The front yard was actually green painted tarmac in one episode
[23:22] <@Solar_Dragon> But they have been seen making muddy skidmarks and cutting the grass in other episodes
[23:22] <cjc> So, if you want to waste time discussing who Skinner really is, sure, go ahead.
[23:22] <Cook879> But we can't drop canonicity. We're built upon it
[23:23] <Will-k> Drop canonicity, we drop the wiki
[23:23] <Cook879> well we would be but you derailed the conversation
[23:23] <Will-k> Who, me?
[23:23] <Cook879> i was aiming to cjc
[23:23] <Cook879> i lost track so blame him
[23:23] <Will-k> Oh, rightio
[23:24] <Will-k> MEETING OVER
[23:24] <cjc> Fine, I really don't care who Skinner is, or whether he is Armin or Martin Sheen, or any of that shit
[23:24] <Will-k> Causing too many disputes
[23:24] <Doh5678> AGF EVERYONE
[23:24] <cjc> Isn't that the idea of it >_>
[23:24] <Cook879> We weren't expecting you to canonball in and change the topic to removing canonicity
[23:25] <cjc> I'm not saying remove canon, I'm saying we have never had canon.
[23:25] <Will-k> cjc: Really, are you only here just to stir the pot?
[23:25] <Will-k> Mhmm
[23:25] <Will-k> Honestly, if we remove canonicity, I'm leaving
[23:25] <Will-k> The wiki, that is
[23:25] <Will-k> BA
[23:25] <@Solar_Dragon> Okay, every building has wheels so that's why they move around!!!
[23:25] <Will-k> *BS
[23:25] <cjc> We have never used canon.
[23:25] <Will-k> We alwayshave!
[23:25] <Will-k> Solar_Dragon: XD
[23:26] * Cook879 points cjc to the whole noncanon sections and pages and discussions
[23:26] <cjc> We have never listed all the plots of the episodes on Homer's page describing what he has done in them
[23:26] <Will-k> *facepalm*
[23:26] <Will-k> Goodbye folks
[23:26] * Will-k (~Will-k@clubpenguinwiki/user/Will-k) has left #wikisimpsons
[23:26] <Cook879> I wanted to but it would be hard work and an odd structure
[23:26] <@Solar_Dragon> At least we haven't had people coming back from the dead...
[23:26] <cjc> Just having an article with the characters personality and job isn't canon
[23:27] <cjc> The writers write what they want
[23:27] <cjc> For many seasons, Monroe is dead, until they wanted him alive
[23:27] <cjc> In one episode, Bob is about to be executed at the end
[23:27] <Cook879> Was he decalred dead? Was he seen executed?
[23:28] <Cook879> Gravestone's don't cut it, Mona Simpson had one, as did Homer
[23:28] <cjc> So if we don't see it, it doesn't happen....
[23:28] <Cook879> exactly
[23:28] <cjc> So, every mentioned character doesn't exist
[23:28] <cjc> Every thing that is only mentioned doesn't exist or happen
[23:28] <Cook879> For all we know, any number of characters could be dead but we haven't been told
[23:29] <@Solar_Dragon> We have the "Possibly deceased" status for a reason
[23:29] <Cook879> that's different, we have no real proof Monroe died, or Bob got the switch pulled on him
[23:29] <@Solar_Dragon> Exactly
[23:29] <cjc> You seem to think the writers have some grand idea or aim to make sure it fits with everything
[23:29] <@Solar_Dragon> Everyone thought Monroe was dead
[23:30] <Cook879> No, but we need to structure things
[23:30] <cjc> Also, there are degrees of canon anyway
[23:30] <cjc> I'm using Star Wars as it has an easy simple example of canon.
[23:30] <cjc> There is a guy who decides if it fits with everything, it is then rated
[23:31] <cjc> Films are G-canon, the top level
[23:31] <cjc> then the two Clone Wars shows are the next level
[23:31] <cjc> then is c-canon, all the books comics and stuff
[23:31] <cjc> then is the s-canon, where it is mostly non-canon, except for the bits that don't contradict.
[23:31] <cjc> then is non-canon
[23:32] <Cook879> we have levels in practice, episodes take precendence over all other media
[23:32] <cjc> if something does contradict, it is removed, or if something of a higher level is released and contradicts something of a lower level, then the lower level is ignored.
[23:33] <cjc> The simpsons structure is this:
[23:33] <cjc> None
[23:33] <cjc> canon doesn't exist.
[23:34] <Cook879> No, because episodes are more official then any other media
[23:34] <Doh5678> *headdeskcomputerfacepalmexplosionheadbrainf*ck*
[23:34] <cjc> But if you want to cross-analyse season 2 to see if it hints that Skinner is fake, go ahead
[23:34] <cjc> Says who......
[23:34] <Cook879> a different team are involved with comics, books, games, less control from tabove
[23:35] <Cook879> says us - we can't throw away what we do just like that
[23:35] <cjc> who put us in charge...
[23:35] <cjc> Anyway, you lot go look up whether Armin is in the background in comic story #23, I'm off
[23:35] * cjc (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has left #wikisimpsons
[23:36] <Cook879> We represent the fans, hence we decide on the structure for fans to read
RE: Seymour Skinner continuity - Doh5678 - 10-08-2011 06:56 PM
Remember, Assume Good Faith everyone
RE: Seymour Skinner continuity - Cook879 - 10-09-2011 07:04 AM
From the episode in question:
"By authority of the City of Springfield I hereby confer upon you the name of Seymour Skinner, as well as his past, present future and mother."
RE: Seymour Skinner continuity - Cook879 - 10-09-2011 09:03 AM
Just read this when flicking onto random pages: Boy Meets Curl/References
"Although it was hinted in previous episodes, this is the first episode that confirms that the Seymour Skinner that we commonly see is indeed Agnes Skinner's birthson and not an impostor, and the first to outright retcon "The Principal and the Pauper", in which we learn Seymour is truly an impostor."
RE: Seymour Skinner continuity - Mythigator - 10-10-2011 03:25 PM
(10-09-2011 09:03 AM)Cook879 Wrote: Just read this when flicking onto random pages: Boy Meets Curl/References
Ummmm ... Doesn't that make a case for leaving things as they are? If we de-canonize "The Principal and the Pauper" on the grounds that it was retconned by "Boy Meets Curl", then by that reasoning we also have to de-canonize practically the whole bloomin' series because of the retcon hatchet job in "That 90s Show". (Full disclosure: I frappin' HATE that episode.)
My $.02 worth: Best to leave things as they are, regarding TP&TP and IDB.
The only canon question I have is whether "Gump Roast" should be considered canon or not, due to the Kang & Kodos appearance. Or should we just leave that particular can of worms closed for now?
RE: Seymour Skinner continuity - Cook879 - 10-10-2011 04:34 PM
"Gump Roast" features non-canon clips right?
At the moment, I'm thinking it's best we use the law, that Armin has all Skinner's past present and future. This accounts for both things we see as Armin and things we see as Skinner, as all of the characters place Armin as the real Skinner. It would take too much work to re-canonize things while the series is still running and would require a lot of analysis.
RE: Seymour Skinner continuity - Will k - 10-19-2011 01:42 AM
But what puzzles me the most is, that although the flasbacks look like Armin, why would he lie about something as big as what he does in Principal-Pauper..
OR MAYBE HE WENT TO PRETEND TO BE REAL SKINNER BECAUSE THEY LOOK SO ALIKE!
Though, does Agnes ever mention Sheldon and her having married previously? Because there's no denying Sheldon and Armin are related! And regarding Gump Roast, it seems pretty insignificant to other stories, so I'd say putting a Non-Canon temp on it would probably be best.